The crossroads of divorce
the crossroads of divorce
Many people feel divorce is a death sentence. But with the right support and guidance, you can move through the process with knowledge, skills and confidence. It can also be a time of growth and progress. As a divorce and empowerment coach, I'm an invaluable member of your divorce team. I help you understand and navigate the process, come to terms with your emotions, avoid costly mistakes, learn skills to help you communicate and negotiate, find your true voice and create an empowered life post-divorce. If you're interested in learning more, schedule a free consultation at herempowereddivorce.com.
Beverly Price: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Her Empowered Divorce Podcast. I'm Beverly Price, your host and divorce and empowerment coach. This podcast is made for you. No matter what phase of separation or divorce you're in, whether you're just thinking about it, having separated, are in the midst of the legal and financial negotiations, or are already divorced, this is for you. And boy am I excited today. My guests are TH Irwin and Jessica Klingbaum of exEXPERTS, and I can't wait for you to hear them tell you about exEXPERTS. These two ladies are two best friends who got divorced at the exact same time. How about that? And although they had completely different experiences, they were lucky enough to have each other through it all. They rose from a lack of resource support and information during their separate journeys, and they both had the desire to help others maneuver through the process. And we have that in common. And from that, they created exEXPERTS. Jessica is an Emmy nominated former TV producer for several national news networks. I am so intimidated, Jessica.
Jessica Klingbaum: You don't have to be intimidated.
Beverly Price: And she's an external optimist and someone who always sees the silver lining. So beautiful. And TH Irwin began her career at a boutique market research firm. I started my career in market research too. How about that?
TH Irwin: It helped me a lot in my career, Barbara and 1.
Beverly Price: Yeah. And she worked for Anderson Consulting, which is a very high stress progress driven organization. And fun role as director of experiential events for USA today. In 2020, they co-founded exEXPERTS and I'll let you tell more about them and that organization. Hi TH and Jessica, thank you so much for being my guest today. It's so good to have you. You both have made such an impact on women. I can't wait to hear from you.
Jessica Klingbaum: Thank you so much. And thank you so much for the opportunity to come on and share our stories.
T.H. Irwin: Yeah, we're really excited to talk.
Beverly Price: Oh, we are too. You are the first time that I've ever had two guests at once, so we're going to take a stab at making sure this works just fine. So either one or both of you, what is exEXPERTS and how does it help women?
T.H. Irwin: So we created exEXPERTS because we found a need for it as we were going through our own divorces. We had one another to lean on the entire time, and our divorces were completely different. And what we ended up realizing is it's less about the business of divorce, even though we certainly helped one another out in terms of things to think about when negotiating, like college and cars and [?] mitzvahs and who's paying for all that stuff. But I think at the beginning we kind of took it for granted that we had each other, we had our weekends covered, holidays covered, New Year's Eve covered with one another. And we had someone who was literally walking in our shoes at the same time, which is, I think very uncommon, especially for close, close friends. So eventually we realized, you know what? We really need to create a platform to help other people so they have a TH and Jessica in their lives. A place to go, someone to rely on a good listener. And that's why we created exEXPERTS, which is essentially a platform of aggregated information. Our values are to empower, support and educate anyone going through divorce. We're not going to tell you who your right lawyer is. We're not going to say you have to use this coach, but we will educate you so you can make the best choices for yourself.
And so that's the purpose of exEXPERTS and our divorce, etc. podcast. We have over 140 exEXPERTS including Beverly, who will soon be on with us. A people who find it essentially important that people know that when you walk into a lawyer's office, you should be asking questions. And this is coming from lawyers. They want to do the best job they can for you and each of the different disciplines that you might hire. When you're thinking about divorce, you're going through it. And by the way, when you're done and you're signed, that's when the real work comes into play. That's when you really need to be educated. So exEXPERTS was created on the premise of supporting one another. You are not alone. You can do things that you think are hard, you're capable of much more than you realize. And that's because Jessica and I had each other and we actually lived it. So we get it.
Beverly Price: Now, Jessica, you've got this online platform, you've got this podcast, but you also have some in-person events too, right? So you cover all the different ways to reach people.
Jessica Klingbaum: We do. I mean, the podcast and the website and our social accounts are really filled with resources for people to, as TH said, become educated on what do you need to know if and when you're going through a divorce, what questions do you need to ask certain experts? What type of experts might be involved in your divorce? How to negotiate certain things, how to navigate the process. We have in-person events. We've done an actual in-person event, but most of them have been virtual. And it's a combination. Some of them are really more of support groups. We call them inner circles because we want to help to be people's inner circle that they can come to a safe space and talk about whatever is the latest going on that week, that day in their process, and be able to help guide them and have support from other people in the group that have also been through the same things. And some of our events have been focused more on doing a deeper dive into a specific topic. So we've had our experts involved and we would have an event where we would sell tickets and it would be online and it would be what type of divorce is right for you or how to budget and pay for your divorce. Correct. So we're offering our experts in a more personal close-up venue for people to be able to actually engage and ask questions and have access to them during those events.
Beverly Price: Oh, that's beautiful. I just finished a podcast series on divorce experts where I interviewed each one of the specialized divorce professionals. And it was fascinating just to learn what they did and what they have to offer. Well, I'm really intrigued.
Jessica Klingbaum: Exactly, and our part of…
Beverly Price: Go ahead. No, you go ahead.
Jessica Klingbaum: No, I was going to say part of what we say is you don't know what you don't know when it comes to divorce. Particularly if you're going through it for the first time, you just simply don't know. But we do because we've been through it. So that's why we're here to be able to help give that information to everyone.
Beverly Price: Absolutely. And a lot of times what I've found is people turn let's say to their family, to their parents, to their friends to get input. And sometimes someone got divorced so long ago that many of these experts and this information wasn't even available. And so this is a great way to stay up to date on everything that's going on. And also, I think it's educated so that the other thing I've found with some of my clients is their family is incredibly well-intentioned and so are their friends, but they may give inaccurate advice because they don't know the specifics of that situation or the law in that state or whatever it is. So I think what you're doing is, is so impressive.
Jessica Klingbaum: It's funny because even TH and I, so we were two best friends who got divorced at the exact same time. It looked very similar on the outside because we had found out within a week of each other that both of our husbands were having affairs and covering for each other. So on the outside it looked like two divorces that you'd think would be very similar because our husbands were cheating. But we had two totally different divorces. And so to your point, like if we hadn't necessarily gotten divorced at the same time, whoever would've gone first would've been like, oh, I used this lawyer and this is how it went and this is what you should expect. And our divorces could not have been more different. So we always say to people, it doesn't matter if you have a friend or a sibling or your parents or a colleague or an acquaintance. Even if you know people who've been divorced, that's great. And as you said Beverly, they are well intentioned. So it's nice and important to hear people's perspective, but it's most important to keep in mind that your process is going to be unlike anybody else's exactly. And what we're offering people is resources and direction and navigation and how to find out what your process should be so that you don't make decisions based purely on what other people are saying.
T.H. Irwin: I was also going to say that they're not objective points of view either coming from your family and your friends. And so thank you so much. I really appreciate you giving me direction and some input, but don't go by that input and direction. You can listen to it, but then take what you are learning because they've got skin in the game. You want someone who has no skin in your game to be completely objective, realistic, manager your expectations and give you really the straight up story of how to proceed.
Beverly Price: Yeah. And I also think that goes hand in hand with getting recommendations for divorce professionals to work with in terms of recommending for say an attorney because their situation may warrant mediation rather than litigation. Or they may be looking for someone that has specialized experience in domestic violence and the attorney that was recommended didn't. So just like you, I vet and recommend professionals based on very specific experience that would fit that person's need. Now I deal just with women and you guys deal with men and women, but I really believe that it's critical and I provide two to three resources for the client to interview. I believe it's critical that you have absolutely the best team that you can have working on your divorce.
T.H. Irwin: I mean, if you think about it, it's like if you're, if you're sick, I appreciate your input, I'm looking on WebMD, I'm getting information from everybody. You're going to the best doctor for whatever you're sick for. So it's the same thing here. You're going to go to the best lawyer, you're going to go to the right person who's the right fit for your finances and your financial situation and your living situation even for dating and stuff like that. Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it and then go and do the work. Don't rely on friends and family and their input. Just say, you know what? I could just really use a hug right now and then kind of get them off of the advice dear Abby Trail.
Beverly Price: Yeah, absolutely. So it's fascinating to me that both of your divorces involved infidelity, but it's not too surprising because infidelity is one of the leading causes of divorce. Did you each have a totally different reaction to the infidelity and then moving forward from the infidelity? And could you tell us a little bit about that?
Jessica Klingbaum: I'll start with that. So we definitely had very different reactions. I had met my husband when I was 18 and we split up when I was 36. So we'd been together for half of my life. And he had been having an affair for approximately two to two and a half years when I finally like was hit in the face with the reality that that's what was going on. But we'd been together for half my life and there were a lot of things that still kind of worked in our relationship that we really like, enjoy each other's company. We have the same sense of humor. So obviously that was devastating and humiliating and I was totally pissed. And I wasn't going to stay. I mean, there was no question for me, like I was out. That was it. I wasn't interested in trying to work it out. But I was devastated at the loss of the relationship, my marriage, like what my dreams, what I thought was going to be. We had gotten married very young. There were a lot of things that still fit together. We had a very amicable divorce despite the circumstances and we're very close today. And for me, that's what worked out because there were still things that like we still enjoyed together, we could still hang out together. We are still able to celebrate holidays together. And that was in the long term the vision that I had for me and for my kids because I knew that it was possible. That was not at all TH's experience.
Beverly Price: Okay. TH, tell us more.
T.H. Irwin: So, when Jessica found out, I mean that was when she first started grieving. The other thing that Jessica also struggled with was her identity. It was always Darren and Jessica. Like who is she if she's not with Darren? And so that was another… yeah, definitely for me, the cheating set me free. The cheating isn't what ended my marriage. It's what started the rest of my life. I was really unhappy in my marriage for at least that I remember and I'm aware of now, looking back four years. At least four years. We had terrible communication at best, if you even want to say we communicated because we didn't. And things were just assumed. And I was also married to someone who's legitimately a narcissist. And looking back now I see so much. It was a slow burn and all of that. But the affair was my hallelujah. That was my get out of jail free card. And I was out. I was so grateful that I got the phone call that day and I told her that she saved my life. This is the woman he was with and is still with now today, which is fine. She can have him. I mean I'm good. So, when Jessica and I were supporting each other it's hard to support friends who are going through hard times no matter what it is. And so our advice to people really is, it doesn't matter if you're not matched up exactly with your feelings, but if you can be a good listener for your friends, it doesn't matter if you're not matched up.
I mean, even though we got divorced at the same time, we had very different relationships with our exes. My divorce was four years and in the scheme of things, hers was a hot minute over a dining room table with a bunch of tissues. And we were still able to support one another because people want to be heard. I don't have to agree with her feelings and her perspective, and she surely doesn't have to agree with mine. But knowing that someone is listening to you, you're not crazy and you're not alone, that's ultimately how our different divorces and different marriages and different relationships with our exes still kept us together as friends. It’s really being able to be heard, supported and not judged.
Many people feel divorce is a death sentence, but with the right support and guidance you can move through the process with knowledge, skills and confidence. It can also be a time of growth and progress. As a divorce and empowerment coach for over 25 years, I'm an invaluable member of your divorce team. I help you understand and navigate the process, come to terms with your emotions, avoid costly mistakes, learn skills to help you negotiate, find your true voice and create an empowered life post-divorce. If you are intrigued and want to learn more, schedule a free consultation with me at herempowereddivorce.com. And now let's get back to the show.
Beverly Price: Well, what you went through support some of the statistics that I've heard of about narcissism and being married to a narcissist that the divorce can take on average eight to 10 years because of the nature of your personality disorder and usually be very, very expensive. Yeah.
T.H. Irwin: Yeah, it was all of that. And, and I know that you've also been through… I mean you are quite the champion of your own life despite being knocked down multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times,
Beverly Price: Oh, come on.
T.H. Irwin: And so we're really proud to be here with you, Beverly. You really are a really exceptional. I was going to say bouncer back, but you're just like you just keep going. You just keep going. And that's really the really amazing.
Beverly Price: I'm the energizer.
T.H. Irwin: But it's not easy. And I don't say casually because it's really not easy.
Beverly Price: Yeah. I think with my multiple divorces as everybody knows, it was really interesting to compare them because some of them were easy, some of them were a relief, but the hardest one was with my kids. Not so much from the logistical legal part, but more the emotional and then how you manage life afterwards. So I can totally agree with you guys then. So if somebody wanted to ask you, I love this absolute question and that is, what are the things you wish you had known about divorce that you know now that you didn't know then?
Jessica Klingbaum: I feel like we grew up in the era of like the war of the Roses and Kramer versus Kramer and that was the vision that I had of like what divorce meant and what it looked like. I don't know that I would've done things really much differently. I feel like the way that I got divorced worked out for me, my personality and how I wanted to kind of live my life. But I wish I knew that going out to get a lawyer is not necessarily the correct first step. And I think that that's everyone's knee jerk reaction is like, I gotta get a lawyer. And I think that what you need to do is you need to figure out what type of divorce is going to work best for you. Are you going to mediate? Are you going to have a collaborative divorce? Do you know what that is? Do you think you're going to end up litigating? You have to know what direction you're headed in, what your path is going to be to be able to get the right lawyer. And I wish that more people knew that your first step should not necessarily be to get a lawyer.
Beverly Price: Yeah. One of the things that I actually promote is that your first step should be a divorce coach because they can walk you through all of those things. They can teach you the differences. They can listen to your story and make suggestions and then they can refer you to the appropriate professionals. Back when I last got divorced, there weren't to my knowledge mediators or if they were, of course I didn't know what they were. There certainly weren't certified divorce real estate professionals or mortgage professionals or financial analysts. So there's a lot that I think a coach can help you navigate as well as what I want to ask next is that emotional reaction to divorce. Frequently what happens is those emotions are so intense, they hijack you and they make your decisions rather than your head. Did that play into either one of your divorces at all?
T.H. Irwin: I just want to take one step back to your question before about what I wish I knew. I think even before you get a divorce coach… because we've interviewed many divorce coaches.
Beverly Price: Okay.
T.H. Irwin: Divorce coaches have all different skill sets. They have all different focuses. So, I think that I wish I was better educated on what to do and who the players are. And then go to a divorce coach, ask those questions like, Beverly, how long have you been doing this? What kind of divorces do you specialize in? Do you take me through the whole process or are you just kind of there to hold my hand? Are you instead of a lawyer? There would be a gazillion questions. We have some divorce coaches who have financial certifications. And so my number one thing would be to educate. I would've been educated in not going just based on a referral for my lawyer. I would have also made sure that…. I mean it was four years, so I did learn some stuff, but it would've been better if I asked more questions so that when the divorce is over, I understand what my agreement means in terms of finances. I understand that spousal support is really just buy time until I get my crap together. Really educating myself is the number one thing that I think all people must do before they embark on this. This is a lifetime life altering commitment you're making in a legal signed document in front of a judge. Don't mess around here.
Beverly Price: You are so right. I think so many people think that this divorce is an event but it has such a lasting impact financially, emotionally, logistically, technically that you really have to take a longer-term approach and if at all possible, put your emotions aside and view it like a very neutral businesslike experience. And that's one of the key mistakes people make with divorce.
T.H. Irwin: The other thing I would say as far as emotions, my emotions were kept in check because I had a therapist, a fantastic therapist who helped me and identified my ex as a narcissist and knew what I was in store for. I had no idea. And if they didn't have her support, even though I was thrilled to be out, I was being questioned on my intellect and my education and my ability to parent properly. We had custody experts and employability expert. I was being analyzed like I was a criminal. Like I am not fit to be a mother. I am being questioned of my capability to earn a living. I mean, it's insulting. It's truly insulting when you have to go down the road I went down. Plus, I'm divorcing someone who's sending me horrible messages all the time. This is my fault. I created this. If I had done this, then I wouldn't be dealing with that. And so having a therapist who you trust and who's going to tell you and call you out on your stuff and you're going to listen to is critical for getting through your divorce. It doesn't mean you're not going to have hard days. It doesn't mean you're not going to freak out and sometimes want to be in bed. You are still a human being going through a really traumatic process. But having a therapist will help you make those better choices. Because you can keep the emotions a little to the side and be prepared between your therapist and your professionals for what is to come.
The other thing is again, ask a gazillion questions. You are hiring these professionals and if they're not answering your questions, who the hell knows? I never dealt with mortgages. Why would I know anything about it? I wouldn't. And so I'm never going to be made to feel badly if I have questions about it. So just ask your questions. Don't let the negative voices in your head get too strong and get a therapist because it's hard. It's hard and you need to know better for next time.
Beverly Price: Yeah. I take my clients through a visualization exercise where they have a box with a lid that locks. And what they do when they're going to walk into that attorney's office or have that conversation is they're going to open up that box, they're going to take all their emotions and put it in. They're going to close it and lock it. Go into the attorney's office and when they come out they can take those emotions back out. But to kind of put them aside visually as well as intellectually. So exEXPERTS has a rule book. I find this incredibly interesting. What rules do you have around divorce and co-parenting?
Jessica Klingbaum: You'd have to actually subscribe to get the full rule book. But it's tips of things to be able to keep in mind in terms of what to do and what not to do when it comes to divorce. One of our top tips is like, don't talk about your ex especially if you have kids. Kids hear everything. You think they're in the next room, you think they're not listening. Not only are they hearing it, but it's going to come out of their mouths at a very inopportune moment in front of your ex or vice versa. Your ex is doing it and it's going to come out of your kid's mouths in front of you and you're going to know stuff that's being said. So it's things like that. Be flexible when you can. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes the situation dictates itself where you have to abide by the letter of the law when it comes to your divorce agreement. It is your [?] time and your custody division is on this day at this time until this day at this time. And there is no negotiating and there is no swapping and… okay, that's fine. But for a lot of people who have amicable relationships, if you're able to be flexible, be flexible because what goes around comes around and the time that you have your business set up and you're going to be away on one of your nights that you're supposed to have the kids or years down the line, you start dating and you want to take a long weekend away.
You know what, if you're able to be nice, that will come back to you in spade. So we have like very pragmatic and practical useful tips as part of our rule book for things for people to do and not do that you can utilize right away. And that will make sense throughout divorce regardless of what your circumstances are.
Beverly Price: Oh, that's beautiful. TH, do you want to add anything to that about the rule book?
T.H. Irwin: Well, I don't want to give it all away but back to what Jessica said about not speaking badly about your ex, I mean I had plenty I could say. Aside from even your kids hearing it, it just makes you look ugly, honestly. Like if you are out on the town and you're talking trash, it's coming out of your mouth. You sound like a bitter angry… You're not going to attract positive people when you speak like that. And in fact you're actually isolating yourself and locking yourself into a really negative space. You have to be careful when you go one of those Facebook groups people, because some of them are just super toxic places for people to just spew their anger and feed off of one another. And so you don't want to attract people who are speaking in that way because it's unhealthy for you. So there's a really big picture around that. Certainly, you don't want to hear, you don't want your kids to hear you because that's their dad or their mom. Who would like it if someone was saying anything badly about their mother or father? So there are a bunch of other rules, but that's really the big one that has a lot of tentacles to it.
Beverly Price: Yeah. When I got divorced from my daughter's father, I went to a therapist who specialized in children to ask them how we should go about doing the separation and what to tell the kids. And she told me about a client that she had that was in prison that c committed this heinous act. And she told that client to find one redeeming quality about that person, no matter how little to share that with the child because the child gets a portion of their identity from each parent. And so that was really critical and started me on the process of never speaking negatively about my ex. I think it's so important
T.H. Irwin: And if you have a therapist, you can talk to your heart's content or if you have a TH in Jessica you can bring it here. But when you're out in public and you're in your house, it's just not healthy because that's what you keep hearing in your own head is what's coming out of your mouth. So the more positive you can be with what you put out in the world is what goes back into your brain and allows you or doesn't allow you to sleep at night.
Beverly Price: Yeah. And I think a point you made earlier is it also really affects who's attracted to you if you're looking for a future relationship because positive people aren't attracted to negative people. Yeah.
T.H. Irwin: No. And that's even for new friends. Whatever, if you're going to find a guy or another woman, that's great but you want to surround yourself with good people. I eliminated a lot of toxic people from my life and cream rises to the top. So, just absolutely kinda stay on top.
Beverly Price: Oh, I love that. Cream rises to the top. So what are the most important things that you guys do to keep moving forward?
Jessica Klingbaum: I would say honestly it's making sure that we are kind of constantly talking to people, constantly bringing interviews on subject matter and content that's going to be helping everyone that's part of the exEXPERTS community. We still sometimes find out things that we had not known about from our divorce. You mentioned Beverly earlier and we felt the same way when we heard several months back about a certified divorce lending professional. Someone who has ways to be able to help people primarily stay at home moms or women who had left the workforce and didn't have a steady current income when they're getting divorced. These certified divorce lending professionals can find ways for these people to be able to qualify for financing and qualify for mortgages that you would never qualify for through traditional lenders. So I think that for us it's really just about like making sure that we're kind of at the forefront of the industry, so to speak and that we know what's going on and we know that different areas where there are people that are specifically out there to help people that are going through the divorce process. Because it's a dark and scary and overwhelming place to me.
Beverly Price: Oh yeah. And always changing
Jessica Klingbaum: That's right. Always changing. So I think for us it's really about looking around, listening, reading, making sure that we are letting people know about the newest developments and things like that in the divorce industry.
Beverly Price: Yeah. I just met someone and didn't know this existed. It's a specialized lending professional that helps people by lending them money to front cover attorney's cost who will then take it out of the settlement. And I never knew that.
T.H. Irwin: Is that Nicole Newman?
Jessica Klingbaum: Yeah, we did a podcast interview on that specific exact topic last year, like divorce Monday. We were fascinated.
Beverly Price: Yes. It's Nicole. It is Nicole.
T.H. Irwin: She's awesome.
Beverly Price: She's going to be on here too, so we ought to just look at each other's guest list.
T.H. Irwin: It’ll save you time.
Beverly Price: Okay. so I always like to have my guests make some suggestions to the women in my audience about what are steps they can take moving forward. So I asked for three actionable tips you would give to the women in our audience. So Jessica, if you want to go first.
Jessica Klingbaum: Well, I think I would have to start with kind of our rule book things. I mean, don't talk bad about your ex. I mean, that is an important practical, actionable tip. It's hard not to do. We've all had our moments. I'm not going to say I've never done it. It happens to the best of us, but it's something that everybody needs to be aware of and be conscious of. So I would say that's number one. Because everybody's divorces are so different, everyone's processes are different, every person is so different. For me and for people who are going through an amicable divorce, I think it's really important to actually figure out the value of the money. And what I mean by that is you can be arguing back and forth about money that in the grand scheme of things, may not have a huge impact on your life, right? So, you could be nickel and diming and arguing over, I don't know, $20,000 for something. But if you're 45 years old and you're getting divorced and you think about what that $20,000 is going to mean over the next 50 years, you have to decide is the fighting and the anger and the resentment and the negative emotions. Because even in an amicable divorce, there are still those elements. I mean, just because you were able to have an amicable divorce, doesn't mean you were like holding hands and skipping through the process.
So you're going to have your own argument. So I really had to dig deep and kind of value the actual money and figure out what I was willing to leave on the table in exchange for the type of relationship that I wanted to have after the divorce. So if that resonates with you, if you're in that kind of a situation, then I would say then that's an actionable practical tip for you. And number three for me, I would say, and I made this mistake and I would say conversations with your kids has to be ongoing over the years. My kids were two and four when I first got separated and divorced. And I felt like over the years that was really all they knew. They grew up with divorced parents. They did not grow up with parents who were together for a number of years and then had the trauma of like watching the split happen. They didn't know any better. So when people would make comments about, oh my gosh, it must be so hard for them going back and forth from one house to the next, I'm like, they don't know the difference. That's literally all they know. But I also came from the school of like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If they're not saying anything, then that means everything's fine and I don't have to keep talking about it. I don't have to bring up something that might be upsetting to them if they don't seem upset about it.
And I just think that that was a mistake on my part. And I did not have that conversation periodically over the years, obviously what they were feeling and what they could process at ages two and four versus ages eight and 10, 12 and 14 whatever over the years. And so I feel remiss that I didn't proactively have that conversation with them more times to just say, like, any questions, is there anything you're thinking about? I don't think they ever felt that they couldn't bring it up to me. And they certainly did several at their own time here and there. But I just think it's really important. Don't shy away from it as easy as it is to kind of avoid if you feel like you don't have to address it. I now in retrospect, think that that was a mistake on my part. And so I would recommend making sure that I would at least once a year that you bring it up to your kids and give them the opportunity to express something that they may have been thinking about that you're unaware of.
Beverly Price: I think that's so true because I have two daughters. One of them is very vocal and asked a lot of questions. The other one is very quiet and introverted. And so I don't think she would volunteer the question. So I think that's a great idea. And then I was thinking about your second point about the leaving money on the table. Yeah. I have to also think about if you're bickering, if you're fighting over a certain amount of money, how much is that time costing you? You could be spending more money to bicker over it then to give in. So that's another one. TH, how about you? What are your three tips?
T.H. Irwin: My first one would be to trust your gut. I mean, I really wasn't listening to what my gut was saying for so many years, and it was the most honest marker in my life. The most honest voice because I was afraid.
Beverly Price: And what were you afraid of?
T.H. Irwin: And you have nothing to lose. I was afraid to leave my marriage because of my kids. it had nothing to do with me. I always put myself at the bottom of the barrel. I was miserable, but I had an eight, six, and four year-old, like, what is this going to even mean? But I was like sick at night. I was not functioning, I was robotic. I wasn't living my life. I was robotic. And so my gut was really telling me to get out. I just didn't know how to do it. And I really do use my gut for new people I meet, for new things that come my way. I really kind of take the time to just like, how am I actually feeling? Like I'm not even listening to what anybody else thinks. What do I think? What do I feel? So kind of learning to really listen to yourself, good, bad, and ugly. I think is a skill that I've nurtured over the last 14 years. The other thing to move forward, which kind of ties in with trust your gut and also ties in with taking care of yourself, is to be super present. I'm air quoting everybody fixer by the way. There are no fixers out there. You fix nothing, you save no one. You can't fix people. You can't save them. The only person you can fix and save is yourself. And so really taking care of yourself for me is being present because otherwise I miss. I'm so far planning ahead for the next two minutes that I'm missing what's happening right now and that's a crime for me. That's a loss for me.
So I don't do that anymore at all. I am present in my conversations with other people, especially with my kids. I will hang up. I will focus a hundred percent and give full attention because they deserve it. And tying a little bit into what Jessica said about conversations with your kids. I went to my kids and I said, I don't have all the answers, but you can ask me whatever you want about anything. And I'm an open door and if I can answer it, I will. And if I can't, I'll help you find an answer. And at the very least I'll support you. And that could be their father, that could be the situation, that could be school friends, whatever. So my second thing was really to take care of yourself that it blends into a few others. And then the number one thing for me, this all comes down to me. It's all about me. If you want to move forward and you want to be successful in your life through a divorce, through trauma, through a breakup, through disappointment, whatever, you have to be good with you. You have to be a hundred percent healthy for any health that comes up in your life that is a challenge or a job or a career. If you are not good and as home base, then that's how good a parent, you're going to be a friend you're going to be, all of it. You're only going to be as good to anybody else as you are to yourself. So I exercise every single day. Something, even if it's walking the dog, because that is my time to just…. I feel like it clears my head, but actually all the good stuff comes out at that time. That's when I clear the weeds and the blossoms come in. And so working out allows me to do that. And those endorphins do last me quite a long time during the day so I'm a much nicer person also if I work out every day. But doing some form of movement, walking the dog, doing a killer Peloton glass hiking, skiing, whatever your thing is, sewing, knitting, reading a book, I don't care. Just find your ‘you time’ because you deserve it and it will make you better for yourself.
Beverly Price: So true. So true. Those are such incredible tips, guys. You have so much to offer.
T.H. Irwin: I think we need to write those down.
Beverly Price: I do too. I think.
Jessica Klingbaum: We'll have a tape of this actually. How about that?
T.H. Irwin: Perfect.
Beverly Price: If there was one piece of advice for women who were in those very beginning stage, just considering whether they want a divorce or not. What would you what tip would you give them?
Jessica Klingbaum: I would say they're going to be okay. It sucks. Divorce sucks. It doesn't matter who initiates it. You could be the one who initiated it. Your ex could be the one who initiated it. You could be feeling like you know the scorned spouse. It sucks no matter what, but you are going to get through it. You are going to be okay, and it's going to be an opportunity for you to actually live the life that you want and deserve. It takes two people to get a marriage to a point where it's not working. And we see very often one spouse blaming the other spouse more obviously. It could be having an affair, they checked out of the marriage that people have grown apart. Whatever it is, but it takes two people to get to a point where a marriage is unhappy and it's not working. So look at it as the chance to find someone new and move forward in your life in a positive way. It's an opportunity for you to have what you really want. That's how we like to look at it.
T.H. Irwin: I would also say that at the beginning stages, I know there was a lot of fear and guilt in my mind, and it had nothing to do with me, like I said before, just like, what am I getting into? What is going to happen now? The unknown. Don't let fear paralyze you because you eliminate fear by educating yourself so you can address that. And guilt, guilt also kind of went away as soon as I started educating myself. Like Jessica said at the beginning of this, you don't know what you don't know, but we do. And you've got three role models here among many out there who faced the fear, talk through it, got support, educated themselves, and then it wasn't a difficult decision. And we, at exEXPERTS, and I'm sure Beverly too, do not encourage divorce, but if you find yourself there and you are not able to find your way back to one another, to have a great relationship in your future, don't let fear and guilt eliminate you from having the future that you can have and finding happiness. Whatever that looks like, you just need to learn so that you know better.
Beverly Price: Yeah, I think a part of that too is the concept of choice. I had a choice. I had spent a lot of time in my marriage blaming him and forming what I call the victim mentality, that everything was his fault. And all that did was kept me from looking at me and changing. And so I had a choice with the divorce of what kind of future I wanted to have and what kind of person I wanted to be. And so you can choose to be the victim, you can choose to be miserable, or you can choose to walk through your fear and find a life that you dreamed of. And I think that's that choice is so important.
T.H. Irwin: We interviewed an expert who said, you can either be a victim or a creator. So we've all chosen to be creators here and that goes along with making a choice. It's hard to make that choice. It's hard, it's scary. You don't know what's going to happen to me, what's going to happen to my kids, how am I going to be seen? What are people going to think of me? But what do you think of yourself if you don't make a choice to be a creator?
Beverly Price: And when they have resources like us they can get through it and know they're not alone. So do you have anything else you'd like to share with our audience? You've been such fabulous guests.
Jessica Klingbaum: I would just say that it's very common and understandable that when you are starting to go through the divorce process or just even you're in the divorce process to pull away a bit from the people around you and your loved ones, your friends, your family and find yourself alone more wallowing in it all, processing it all and it's a completely normal reaction. But we really like to emphasize the importance of community and talking to people who've been through what you are dealing with and who really understand it. It's a connection on a higher level. And so for everyone out there, no matter how much you're struggling with your divorce, I mean, come to exEXPERTS, come to our divorce, etc., podcast, come to our events, reach out to us on social media and see what we have going on. Because that's exactly what we are building, is a community of like-minded people who've been through whatever you are going through. We laugh when people are thinking they have it so bad. And then we tell our stories about our husbands being best friends and like going on couples’ trips without us while we're home with the kids. And people are like, you can't make this up. It's not about misery loves company, it's about people understanding a devastating situation and being able to come out on the other side, being able to see the silver lining and the light at the end of the tunnel.
And so I would just say to people, don't isolate yourself too much. Make the effort once a week, once a month to go out, see your friends. Do something on the weekends that makes you feel happy and productive because you don't want to get stuck into that black hole and in that vortex of disappointment and hurt and sadness. You want to be able to move forward as quickly as you can. And we can help you do that.
Beverly Price: Just a follow up to that is a lot of women have isolated themselves through their whole marriage focusing solely on their husband and their kids and maybe a job to the point that they have no friends. Do you have a suggestion for that?
Jessica Klingbaum: Come to ExEXPERTS. That's what we're creating those groups for you. Go ahead, TH
T.H. Irwin: Yeah, I was also going to say, there are a few things. I just posted on social media the other day because I was in a Starbucks for a little while. I don't even drink coffee but I needed a place to kill time and go to a Starbucks, bring a book. Being surrounded by people even if you don't know them is so healthy. Go to a park, go to the mall. Go where people are, go to the movies. If you don't want to sit and eat a meal by yourself, I totally get it, but there are plenty of places where there are people. Go to a town that's super busy on the weekend and walk around. Just being around other people is so good for you. And then as far as embarking on new friendships, that's really what ExEXPERTS is all about. And then the other part that you can do for yourself is like, Jessica learned to play poker over Covid. Like, what does she have to lose? She did it. And she made new friends that are online poker friends and then she joined a book club. And then she joined a book club. So those are the things that were like, hmm, I wonder if I could do that and I do love to read, so maybe I should. These kinds of groups are everywhere. And we just actually also started in-person events. I started a Lady's Poker night this week, and it was awesome. And we all made new friends. And so just look and see all the events online, whether you have timeout or whatever, or look in your local directories of events happening and go and be around people. And if you love to cook, then go find friends and cook together. I mean, there's so many things you can do.
And if you're not ready for an in-person thing, if that stresses you out, there's so much online thanks to Covid that you can take a masterclass. There's tons of YouTube stuff out there, and when you're, you're being taught, you're not feeling alone. So there are just so many opportunities now for you.
Beverly Price: Well guys, how can my audience find you?
T.H. Irwin: Yeah, you can look at exexperts.com. It's our website with everything, all of our social media, if you just type in exEXPERTS, you'll find us on. TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and our divorce, etcetera Podcast has kicked off its third season with over 150 episodes so far. That's 150 different things that you can learn. And by the way, it's not all about the divorce process. If you are out, we talk about dating first dates, how to find sex again, being confident with yourself, finding a new job, your career, also self-growth. All of those things we have for you between all of our different touchpoints for you. I would say the number one thing is to listen to the podcast and sign up for our newsletter so you know what's coming up. If we're doing virtual events, in person events. Jessica and I always have a note every week, a personal note that we send to you so you know you're not alone. We resonate with a lot of people that way. So just doing those two things, you will know you’ll be okay.
Beverly Price:
Thank y'all so much for being with me. This has been absolute, a true educational pleasure. I hope it was for you too.
Jessica Klingbaum: Thank you so much, Beverly.
T.H. Irwin:
Thank you so much Beverly, really.
Beverly Price: And thank you ladies out there for listening to this episode of Her Empowered Divorce. If you found the episode valuable, please subscribe, give us a review and tell your friends about us. And don't forget to share with those specific friends that are in similar situations to ours and divorce. All of TH and Jessica's information will be available in the show notes along with mine. And you can find the episodes either where you, wherever you listen to podcasts or at herempowerdivorce.com on the podcast page. I believe that women helping women is our superpower. That's why I'm bringing you wonderful, strong, professional women to share in all areas of divorce. While many of us have spent our lives investing in husbands and children, it's time to invest in ourselves and let's learn. You don't have to go through this divorce process alone. Whether you're thinking about divorce separated or in the midst of the negotiations, we can find professionals that can help you in your search. Join me in the next episode, we'll be learning more things that'll affect your journey
Connect with Beverly Price, the Podcast Host & Divorce & Empowerment Coach
● Website - www.herempowereddivorce.com
● Email - beverly@herempowereddivorce.com
● Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/herempowereddivorce/
● Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/beverlyprice365/
● Facebook Group for Women: Women’s Divorce and Empowerment Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/divorcerecovery
● Instagram - www.instagram.com/her_empowered_divorce
● LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/beverly-price/
● Meetup Group for Women - www.meetup.com/womens-divorce-and-empowerment-group
● Schedule a private consultation: https://Beverly-Price.as.me/Consultation
SUBSCRIBE TO THE HER EMPOWERED DIVORCE PODCAST
● Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@herempowereddivorce/
● Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/her-empowered-divorce/id1635143315 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7kIcMXrj1tIWBOmaXBBn1U
If you liked this episode, please don’t forget to leave us a review, subscribe, and share this podcast!
****************************************
About Host, Beverly Price:
Beverly Price, a certified Divorce and Empowerment coach, combines divorce and empowerment coaching to provide education, support, and insight to guide women through the divorce process and conquer its emotional, technical, financial, and logistical challenges.
Her coaching stresses self-awareness, conflict resolution, communication skills, organization, and clarity. She provides one-on-one custom-designed coaching to help women through the ups and downs and grow from self-doubt to self-love quicker, with less pain and more knowledge than she did.
Other episodes of the Her Empowered Divorce podcast and the Divorce Expert Series, information about Beverly’s coaching, blogs, and more can be found at https://www.herempowereddivorce.com.
Sign up for a free consultation with Beverly to find someone who can educate, advocate and guide you through all phases of divorce so you can reach an empowered and happy new life! Click on the link https://Beverly-Price.as.me/Consultation Don’t go it alone!